digital printing...lab or self?

[Toni]

Hi All,
Im in a cunundrum. Starting out, Im trying to keep my costs down as much as possible but I need my portfolio and mailers to be top notch. Im trying to break into food and product; mostly magazines and directly with business owners. My current little printer cant cut it.
I want to keep multiple books available due to most mags having the same drop off schedule and wanting to ensure Ive always got one with me. Its gonna run me a few hundred to have them printed so Im considering forking out the extra cash (or more accurately, credit:)) and printing myself but I dont know the first thing about buying a printer. I can figure our using it once Ive got it, but I dont know what to look for. My current books are 8x11 and 8x8 so I dont need large format, but Im open.
So my question is.... whos happy with what, and why?
Toni

[Peter Wm. Richardson]

Toni:
Me again! We just had this discussion on another forum and here was the general consensus, Look seriously at the Epson 3800. It has exceptional colour and tonality, it is economical and it is efficient. You can get tech information on the Epson web site, but the above info was the overall opinion of the photographers who responded to the thread. It was either on Stockphoto, or Ep or APA, but I will try to nail that down for you. The Epso surpassed the Canon and the new HP in their opinions. Here is a link to a pretty good review also http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/printers/epson-3800.shtml
Cheers,
Peter
Peter Wm. Richardson
Photojournalist
peterw@journalist.com

[andrewr]

I use pikto in the distillery district (http://www.pikto.ca) for most of my printing these days. You can rent their digital darkrooms for $25/hr and print 8x10s for $2.75 each. They used to have a deal for portfolio printing as well, but I'm not sure if they're still offering it.

Even if you buy a cheap Epson printer for a couple hundred bucks, you still have to pay for ink and paper, which will push the cost per print to $2 or more. A colour calibration system is also a good idea to get the best results, so that would cost you another couple hundred bucks.

I honestly think it's easier and cheaper to go to pikto, unless you really do a lot of printing and want to experiment with different papers, etc.

Andrew

[Darrol]

And Andrew is right...it is easier and cheaper to go to someone like Pitko, for sure. The only reason for you to consider doing this yourself is control.

I used to say (still do, actually) that I am the best printer in the world, because I'm the only one who can make me happy! :D There is a lot to be said about being able to do your own portfolio work. Using the Epson 3800, for example, you can create all of your portfolio pieces on archival art paper, which will give it a unique look and feel. You could have a 16x20 portfolio, for when you make direct calls, and several small 5x7 or 8x10 or 11x14 books to send to others, near and far. You can custom design a portfolio for a particular quote situation.

Let me emphasize this...you will save no money. It may even cost you more. BUT...it will look exactly the way you want it to look. Priceless.

[andrewr]

I just received a newsletter from Pikto about a new service they're offering called Pikto Books. The prices sound pretty reasonable ($55 for hard cover linen with 20 pages, plus $25 setup fee). I know there are other online services that have been doing this for awhile, but I would imagine they are mostly US based. Apparently Pikto is doing everything in-house: "Your book will be created with meticulous printing and binding techniques right within Pikto."

Here's the link for more info: http://www.pikto.com/books/

Cheers,

Andrew

[Peter Wm. Richardson]

Hi Andrew:
For Toronto local buyers this might be not too bad, no shipping costs, but the prices are higher than the competition. Blurb, for example, charge $29.95US for up 40 pages, hardcover with a dust jacket. They ship by UPS Ground to Canada, within 4-7 business days.
Their soft covers start at $18.95 for the same 20-40 pages. They also have a number of discounts and specials, including a pretty good volume discount. With the Loonie fast reaching par with the greenback and economists saying that this is probably an inevitability with our present growth economy, it makes them look really good for the rest of us.
Cheers,
Peter
Peter Wm. Richardson
Photojournalist
peterw@journalist.com

[ChrisP]

HI All:- Unfortunately the cross border shipping and fees tend to kill the advantage of buying from the US.
Blurb books are $ 29.95 plus $ 18.00 shipping plus UPS outrageous fees of $19.00 minimum and 15 % money difference works out to almost $ 80.00 per book. That's pretty much what Pitko charges and they are Canadian. I contacted Blurb months ago about shipping via post office. It took almost month to have them tell me they only ship via UPS. I have learned that UPS enters into a contract with US suppliers. They get a discount for shipping with UPS and charge us full pop. They also demand a premium to ship to Canada so with small dollar purchases it negates any savings we get from buying from the States.

Our market is so small vs the US that our suppliers usually cannot compete price wise on most items. Therefore the book we can buy in the US is at least double in Canada.

Cheers
Chris

[Toni]

Hi All.
Thanks for the input. As much as Im a perfectionist, I think Ive decided to have someone else print them for the sake of my sanity. I went to pikto today to check it out. While I was there I saw samples of those bound books. Theyre beautiful for a perminant collection; a series or other exhibit project, but I would think a costly way to go about ones ever evolving portfolio.

[Alastair]

HI All:- Unfortunately the cross border shipping and fees tend to kill the advantage of buying from the US.
Blurb books are $ 29.95 plus $ 18.00 shipping plus UPS outrageous fees of $19.00 minimum and 15 % money difference works out to almost $ 80.00 per book. That's pretty much what Pitko charges and they are Canadian. I contacted Blurb months ago about shipping via post office. It took almost month to have them tell me they only ship via UPS. I have learned that UPS enters into a contract with US suppliers. They get a discount for shipping with UPS and charge us full pop. They also demand a premium to ship to Canada so with small dollar purchases it negates any savings we get from buying from the States.

Our market is so small vs the US that our suppliers usually cannot compete price wise on most items. Therefore the book we can buy in the US is at least double in Canada.

Cheers
Chris

My first Blurb book cost $35, for 54 photos (28 pages?) and shipping to Canada

I ordered 10 more and they cost $165 US for the 10, plus $22.50 from UPS.

I guess their rates have dropped a bit... They used to charge a Kings' ransom, but for the first book it was nothing extra (it was valued at $3 for customs)

Nice colour, not perfect but certainly acceptable. The registration leaves a lot to be desired - don't have any important details near the edges...

[ChrisP]

I ordered 10 more and they cost $165 US for the 10, plus $22.50 from UPS.

...

Hi Alastair:- What did UPS ding you for brokerage and such?
I had a printer shipped from the US. Shipping was $45.00 and brokerage was almost $ 50.00 plus taxes.

I would like to try Blurb but the shipping and brokerage has put me off.

Cheers
Chris

[Toni]

Chris.
Im with you about brokerage fees. UPS seems to be the worst. I just received some stuff I ordered from south of the border. $180. + $25. forS&H. The brokerage fees were about $85. Brutal!!!
Toni

[Robert_Ottawa]

Just a short note about my experiences with UPS cross-border shipping. I used to do a bit of eBay buying and selling.

Their UPS "Ground" service usually incurs substantial brokerage fees. It's deceptive because the name implies an inexpensive service, which would be ok when not in a hurry. But, that level of service does not include brokerage services, which is billed extra. (I think that FedEx has a similar level of service with similar constraints.)

And as others have noted, the added-on brokerage are exhorbitant. Large enough for me to think there's something "funny" going on. I had a FedEx shipment from NY whose brokerage fees were 1.5 times the cost of the item. I wrote several letters and emails to both the vendor and FedEx and NEVER received a response of any kind. I suspect that they are benefitting greatly from this confusion and they see no reason to change their practices.

Their (UPS) next level (Expedited, I think??) costs more, but brokerage fees are included and the total amount is less than Ground + brokerage.

It got to the point, in my trading, that I would simply refuse to deal with anyone unless they agreed to ship by postal service. In my experience, and I know this is difficult to believe, not only was the postal service almost always cheaper but it was also usually quicker. Shipments to me were either to Toronto or Ottawa and that probably has something to do with it. Postal service to other destinations may not be so good.

There are many sellers on eBay and elsewhere that have exclusive agreements with UPS, so it's best to check before committing. The larger mail order houses have shipping agents who know all the ins and outs of cross-border shipping but smaller places and independants usually don't, in my experience. For US to US addresses, UPS Ground is very inexpensive but many vendors simply don't know what happens when a parcel crosses a border.

(I should add that it's been about 2 years since I did much cross-border buying or selling so things may have changed since then.)

I should also add that in my experience, the Cdn post office is pretty hit and miss when it comes to adding on PST/GST. That is, about half the stuff I've had shipped had those costs tacked on and half didn't. I have never been able to figure out why.

[Peter Wm. Richardson]

I see we have succeeded in hijacking another thread:) A word about shipping and brokerage, in general, NEVER ship anything by ground, it is nearly always more expensive and even though they offer the service, you do not have to use a shippers Customs Broker, you can use your own. Whether you do or don't however, Revenue Canada is always very helpful in explaining the rules and regs. Over the years, I have done all three options and although I usually let FEDEX handle everything, I will still sometimes hire a broker or do it myself. Especially, if I am bringing something across the border personally. Most brokerage firms will give you general advice if you ask them, within reason, naturally. I have personally imported camera gear from NYC and had no problems and I have shipped a yacht and all the gear and crew gear to the UK via a broker and had no problems either. It is all on how you approach it and how much patience you have.
Cheers,
Peter
Peter Wm. Richardson
Photojournalist
peterw@journalist.com

[ChrisP]

Hi Robert:- I agree with the post office hit and miss. The usual rule of thumb is anything under $ 30 to $ 50.00 is let in with no taxes or the $ 8.00 fee.
I have had higher dollar items come in with nothing due.

Ups is very good at signing people to exclusive deals. We in Canada are such a small part of someone's business that they don't want to go out of their way to deal with us. I asked one vendor if they would ship via the post office. He wanted a $25.00 handling fee because he had to go the post office to mail it. His answer was UPS picks up here and it only takes him a couple of minutes to ship with UPS and over an hour to go the post office to mail a parcel.

It's frustrating at best because we can get stuff from the states that is not available in Canada and sometimes it is still cheaper from the states even with all the fees.

Oh well it's friday, sunny and warm, we have a show to do next week so I am getting the trailer out of storage and we are off to shoot some dogs and drink some wine. Life is good.

By the way to get this thread back on line I print at a lab for my dog show prints but still print all my custom and small orders at home myself.

Cheers
Chris

[andrewr]

Chris.
Im with you about brokerage fees. UPS seems to be the worst. I just received some stuff I ordered from south of the border. $180. + $25. forS&H. The brokerage fees were about $85. Brutal!!!
Toni

Hi Toni,

Do you know if your order was shipped by UPS ground? As other people have said here some UPS services should be free of brokerage fees, so I was wondering if you knew what method your stuff was shipped by.

I was just looking at some stuff at Adorama in New York and shipping via UPS Worldwide Express is $35. The UPS site says there should be no brokerage fees for this service (http://www.ups.com/content/ca/en/shipping/cost/zones/customs_clearance.html), but how do I know for sure? If they decide to charge it, I don't exactly have a lot of options but to pay it.

Cheers,

Andrew

[Peter Wm. Richardson]

Hi Andrew:
Contact the Canadian authorities, or drop in at Station"A" and see them. They will tell you if any duties etc are payable. If not, there is no real reason for a broker to be involved at UPS's end. Personally, I'd have it shipped Fedex regardless.
Cheers,
Peter
Peter Wm. Richardson
Photojournalist
peterw@journalist.com

[Toni]

Chris,
Yeah, UPS Ground.
Toni